Speaker 1: 0:11

And welcome back to when Leaders Connect, the Corporate Connections podcast, where we sit down with our members and talk about their business, their journey and what they think of being a leader in Canada in 2024. My name's Trevor Botkin, I'm the National Director for Corporate Connections Canada and today it is my incredible pleasure to welcome one of our guests from out West Edmonton, lawyer for the last 20 years, Patty McDonald. Patty has spent five years as a managing partner in a mid-size Alberta firm and you know what? We're just gonna jump right in and talk all about this, talk about the law, talk about how she sees that, and so, without further ado, please welcome to the show, Ms Patty McDonald.

Speaker 2: 0:55

Thanks for having me today, trevor, great to be here.

Speaker 1: 0:58

Absolutely my pleasure. I'm excited to have you on the show. In fact, you're the first have you on the show. In fact, you're the first Albertan we've had in season two. So yeah, and that's only because Jackson canceled on me a couple of weeks ago, otherwise he would have been the first. So we'll just we'll plug Jackson Fisk right then and there let's. Let's go back, because you've been a lawyer for over 20 years and I know that when we first met you were at a pretty large firm and I think it was just around the pandemic where you became the managing partner and then did that successfully for a number of years. And now today you're flying on your own. I mean, you have a team, but you have your own law firm. So I am super curious to know more about that journey and what led to where you are today.

Speaker 2: 1:51

Yeah, it has been a journey. It's hard to believe that it's been more than 20 years since I graduated law school Really hard to believe that. So actually your timeline is a little bit off. So, the first pandemic year? But, uh, so actually your timeline is a little bit off. So, uh, the pandemic the first pandemic year, 2020, was actually my last year as a managing partner, so I'd been in that role for four years prior to that. Um, so I I went to law school, uh, wanting to be a paper pusher, and so I selected my practice, as you know, not working with unhappy people who are fighting in the courts.

Speaker 2: 2:27

I'm a solicitor and I grew up at the same firm. I did my articles there, I was an associate there, I experienced my mat leave and my return from mat leave there. I was a partner and a managing partner and a managing partner. But all through all of this, my real passion and my goal has been to make private practice more hospitable for women. That's always been my goal and I thought for many years that by laying foundations at a single firm would be a great way to do that, and for many, I think, for many individuals and for many circumstances, that was the case for some period of time.

Speaker 2: 3:12

It's a pretty small pool. You know, even at a firm where there's, you know, almost 50 lawyers and another 60 or 70 staff, it's not really a large pool of people. So I've now sort of broadened that approach to looking at ways that I can add value, ways that I can influence private practice in a broader scale. So I am quite active on LinkedIn, as you know, and I do some other things and I've got some great ideas for some other things I may do. So creating my own firm was a piece of that puzzle, because we wanted to be able to post pandemic, we wanted to be able to continue to do some creative and interesting things, to experiment in the workplace and to experiment with legal practice and to experiment with technology and things that were a little bit harder and slower to do in a larger firm. So that's part of the impetus for a new firm, but also this broader picture of how can we influence the industry by creating something that's new and that's attractive both for clients and for those who work in the industry.

Speaker 1: 4:35

And I guess fundamentally it's really about putting your money where your mouth is. And it's one thing to be in a law firm and have these great ideas. It's another thing to go out and build it and remove some of the shackles that maybe being in somebody else's organization would impose, just by the very nature of being just one of many partners.

Speaker 2: 4:58

Absolutely structure of law firms. I came to realize that it wasn't about this person or that rule that was creating those shackles. I love that word. It was the broader. The way that the industry is built, the way that partnerships are built, the way that lawyers interact, the way that the law societies govern all of the system creates these shackles and prevents you from moving as quickly as business and technology and change moves in 2024.

Speaker 1: 5:34

So have you had to go back and look within whether it's common law which is its own I think kettle of fish but also in terms of? I mean, because Canada is relatively new, so much of our legal system is predicated on the English legal system, from what I know, and then you also have maritime law and you have a lot of in commerce law, and so you have a lot of different kind of interweavings and then ultimately it's the courts that decide what has how we're going to judiciously look at things within within a Canadian context. Was there a process of having to kind of go back to school and in either relearn or unlearn some of these to be able to navigate kind of that, that labyrinth of you know, what can you do within the context of your order and what can you do within the context of Canadian law? And are there arbitraries that are either self-imposed or that are actual legal arbitraries, that there's no kind of wiggle room around?

Speaker 2: 6:38

Yeah, so this is so fascinating the fact that my business is in law because law is a very slow to change industry compared to others, and precisely because we're built on this idea that we will follow the rules that have come before. And as societies become more complex, what has come before becomes more complex, what has come before becomes more complex. But my philosophy has always been that the law is so fascinating because it really is the rules that we have agreed to, willingly or not, as a society, the rules that we've agreed to follow in how we interrelate to one another. So that really is what law is all about. But in the business of law in large firms, sometimes we forget that it's all about interrelating with other people. So from an internal perspective, that's really important. From a client relation perspective, that is all we can do is provide that connection to people. So I think that's really interesting.

Speaker 2: 7:49

So for our new firm, we are learning. We are learning lots of things. We did have to go to the rule books to see are we allowed to do this, or are we allowed to do that, or how can we do things differently within the constructs of what is there, and we continue to find our way through that. But again, this is exactly what lawyers are actually tasked with. Doing is not saying can I or can't I, but how can I innovate in this way? How can I bring this business idea to fruition in the context of what's there? So we're practicing that for ourselves right now and we're not exactly pushing limits. That's not really our game. What we want to do is find that human side, that connection, and bring that to everything that we do and put it really in the forefront of how we operate our firm.

Speaker 1: 8:51

It feels more holistic in the sense of looking at the entire relationship, not just the legal sort of ramifications of what's going on, but also what are the interpersonal ramifications of those choices and how things are set up. So I'm assuming you're working mostly with business owners and entrepreneurs, or is it also family law?

Speaker 2: 9:13

No, we don't do any family law. We do some wills and estates. My partner and one of our associates does some wills and estates which sometimes people confuse as family law.

Speaker 2: 9:24

But we don't do divorces, we don't do criminal law, we don't do any work in the courts, and we also choose our clients. So this is another thing that we are doing differently. We don't have to take every call. We don't have to act for every person who calls us. We can choose whether they are going to be a good fit for us, and part of that determination is how they relate to us.

Speaker 2: 9:52

And our thinking is that our clients are part of the team, the project team that is working to get something done, and if a client wants to dump the problem on us and sort of step aside, they're not going to be a good fit for us. We want clients who are going to be actively involved and who are going to take on some of the work to complete their own project. Right, that's what's going to make a good fit.

Speaker 1: 10:21

And how has that process manifest itself with either existing clients that followed you from your former firm or new clients that have come to you via I assume word of mouth and through your website?

Speaker 2: 10:36

Yeah, we do engage with clients for a pretty fulsome initial consultation and so for the associates that we have, you know, the partners there's two of us that are partners in the firm and we really strive to engage with the clients and provide that level of expertise and an experience that is needed at that initial meeting. And this has always been my style. But those initial meetings don't necessarily yield cash rewards.

Speaker 2: 11:14

But it's really important to lay the groundwork, make sure the customer understands some of the basics that they're facing so that they can make an educated decision about whether they actually want to proceed with what they're contemplating and whether they want to choose us, and likewise we get to decide whether we want to choose them. So that's sort of our intake process. It's not always an in-depth meeting, but for larger projects it is, and then we layer onto that something that is again quite unique in the market, but it's not new to me. I've been doing this for about 15 years and that is flat fee billing. So we provide a scope of work and a quote and detailed list of what's included in that and what's not included, and for bigger projects we parse it out into stages Depending on the nature of the client.

Speaker 2: 12:10

We might get really creative with what that document looks like to sort of fit their style, and for others it might be a more short form grid with some bullet points. But we provide that scope and quote is what we call it, and that gives us the freedom that we need to not worry about how much time is on the timesheet. Is this client prepared to pay what we've invested in the file? They know upfront and we know upfront and we can act accordingly.

Speaker 1: 12:49

So no retainer, no, just racking up the hours and charging for every phone call and every piece of paper that's produced. You sit down, figure out what it's going to, what your estimation of effort is and what will be required from your side, and you give them an actual estimate and you operate off that.

Speaker 2: 13:09

Yeah. So I'm going to say not necessarily no retainers, because for new clients we do often ask that they pay for a stage one upfront. But that's different, Because for new clients we do often ask that they pay for a stage one upfront, so that would be but that's different.

Speaker 1: 13:19

I think most of us think of a retainer, is this slush fund? And I've had nothing but positive experiences with lawyers, especially in our community. I've been very fortunate, I should knock on wood, but it always kind of feels like you know that's at their discretion and you kind of go, did I just throw? You know that's there's at their discretion and you kind of go, why did I just throw? You know, is that money? I will never see that money again, but you know, I I think it's, it's it.

Speaker 1: 13:47

It feels very different what you just said in terms of you know, here's, here's, here's your, here's your challenge, here's our solution. And we, from our own experience in the last 20 years, we feel that this will cost you this much and and we're willing to do it for that much, if, if, if, that sounds okay for you, but it it sounds like there's a real transparency, um, as, as opposed to, I think, the old model which always felt like you know, no, no, no, no, that's it. That's it Like stop, stop emailing, let's just let's close the deal, like this is getting expensive.

Speaker 2: 14:26

You've. You've used two words that we don't generally use. You've used the word cost and the word effort. So we try not to measure our cost, because hourly rates are completely arbitrary if you really think about it. Yes, but what we try to assess is what is the value to the client? I spend a bunch of time or we use an enormous amount of resources to get to a solution. What is the value to the client?

Speaker 2: 15:05

If it is a small task. I have to do this for some legislative purpose. There's not a lot of value to them. Proposing a large fee is just not going to be accepted. But in many cases, many cases, the value to the client is quite high and they are willing to pay for good quality service on a reasonable timeline, and that's really what they want. So we're, we're trying to measure our expertise as opposed to ours and, you know, with with a random multiplier tacked onto it. So we're, we're still practicing this.

Speaker 2: 15:51

We've only been uh, in business in September 2023,. But this is sort of the mind shift to get away from cost and expense and effort and start thinking about what's the value to the client.

Speaker 1: 16:06

So thank you for the correction. I love that the the well. It's just cause I think as business owners we sometimes get stuck in the you know doing P and Ls and trying to figure out you know how much is this costing me and what's my return on that investment. And so sometimes when we sit with clients it gets into that sort of equation because that's what the CPA sitting next to us is always kind of drilling in like, oh, this is costing you too much or you're spending here and it's not a revenue source, and et cetera, et cetera.

Speaker 1: 16:40

But I had an experience, as you may recall, I ride motorcycles and there's a gentleman in Saskatchewan, funnily enough, that sells a very simple kit that he developed for correcting the carburetor on my particular motorcycle and it's probably $9 worth of parts that he sells for about $110 after tax and shipping. And someone on the Facebook group had complained and said you know, I'm not spending $100 on $9 in parts. And I said I'm happy to spend $100, but I'm giving him $9 for those parts and I'm paying the rest for him having figured out how to fix the problem Right. And so I love that idea of of the value and is I would have paid more. Had I known it would have fixed it as well as it did.

Speaker 1: 17:30

Um, very happy as a as a customer. So I love that idea of tying it to what's the value. But also you're paying for expertise. This idea of a good lawyer can do it in less time just because of knowledge and expertise and you, in 20 years, having seen so much, it's like you know I actually have a solution because I've solved this problem 10 times, as opposed to someone who says, hmm, let me go and dig into that and they have to go and do all the research, and so I think not changing time for money is brilliant as opposed to what's the result they want and can we deliver that in an acceptable timeline.

Speaker 2: 18:11

Well, and one of the ways that we've explored this is by having started our own business.

Speaker 1: 18:17

Right.

Speaker 2: 18:17

Right. So we ask each time we hire a new vendor to do something for us. We ask what's going to happen if we don't hire this vendor that we know is quality, or what is going to happen if we don't do this at all? Right, and this is one of the times where I will express a great deal of gratitude to the Corporate Connections community, because when we started Fit Law, everything that we needed was just one call away.

Speaker 1: 18:47

And.

Speaker 2: 18:47

I'm very grateful for that. But we didn't price shop because I know the people who are going to serve me and they are going to serve me very well and they're going to, they're going to be thinking ahead of me, they're going to be making recommendations and encouraging me to grow my business and letting me know what the potential obstacles are and helping me when we get lost along the way.

Speaker 2: 19:14

So all of those things has sort of reframed how we practice law, like we need to ask the client from time to time well, what happens if we ignore that little problem altogether and just focus on this one over here? What happens? And we can play through some, some what will happen and and that was really terrible- no, that was, that was authentic.

Speaker 2: 19:46

Play through what happens and you know, and then and then explore different outcomes and that's how you discover what's important to the client, Because sometimes the client doesn't want an absolutely bulletproof contract. They maybe want to preserve a relationship or they want to avoid something that is a likely consequence if they do nothing. So, really understanding that you have to have the conversation instead of just saying, okay, well, now I'm going to have to get into some paper and it's going to have to be bulletproof for all purposes. That's not modern law.

Speaker 1: 20:28

But it sounds like a creative approach as opposed to a reactive right. So where you're actively trying to understand, and I think what's interesting is most people think they need one thing, or they have a, a, a, a, a desire for something or that, and oftentimes there's there's an actual need underneath it that they're not even aware of, um and and so I love that approach. What, now that you've you're you're not quite a year in, but you're into your first spring, let's call it what. What for you, has been the biggest surprise.

Speaker 2: 21:11

Um, I think I really underestimated my own reputation, really underestimated my own reputation, and I underestimated how much of a market there is out there in the world when you are not in an ivory tower.

Speaker 2: 21:30

So, we are in the suburbs of Edmonton we're not a downtown firm, and the number of people who will make a call to us or will refer business to us simply because we're no longer downtown is really incredible. There's a huge market out there and, having a mindset of abundance instead of a scarcity mindset, we really know that we can pick and choose who we wish to work for and with and what kind of practice areas we want to do. We have choices.

Speaker 1: 22:11

Beautiful.

Speaker 1: 22:12

I was listening this morning to a podcast about complexity versus simplicity, in that we tend to create things that are more complex than they need to be, and he was positing that the goal is to always seek out simplicity where we can and to try to simplify things, and even to the point where you know many of us we go, we get our job, we meet someone, we get married, we get a house, we get a mortgage, and then you know we turn 50, 60, we start going.

Speaker 1: 22:47

Now I have to get rid of all of this and simplify and you know, when we see those people who, just it's, there's an elegance to the simplicity and I think nature, we see simplicity everywhere we look and so I think that's really interesting, um in in terms of the, the slowing down and then seeing that the market, that that, following falling into the trap of I need the big office, I need I need to be downtown, I need to have the corporate letterhead and and it needs to be all these things, because that's my competition to seeing. No, I can be me in my law firm with my partner and people will a follow me and want to work for me, but also my clients will see that value and I love. I love that you underestimated yourself.

Speaker 2: 23:41

Well, and I love what you said about all of the things about life and balance and there's so much talk in the legal industry about work-life balance and all this sort of thing. I was very lucky to have worked at a firm that was recognized as a bit more of a lifestyle firm. It was not a sweatshop by any means. Yes, I did work long nights. I never worked an overnight in all my 20 years but you know that is so important and we've got two associates and we've got four full-time staff with us and understanding that people have lives and that our business, my business, is not their life is so important because when we, when we pressure people into valuing the business the way that the owners value the business, I think you set yourself up for great disappointment.

Speaker 1: 24:42

It's also not fair. It's not their business and you know, if we want to show up and do crazy hours and be there early and stay late, that's our choice. But to think that's culture building, yeah, of course.

Speaker 2: 24:56

Life happens. You know people have babies. Yeah, People die, People get sick. You know tragedies happen. Joyful things happen. People want to travel and all of these things make the people that you've chosen to join your business. It makes them better. Your business it makes them better. So we have to remember not to withhold those things that make them their best self.

Speaker 2: 25:26

So that's another part that we're really working to um to bring into the business, and I do find myself from time to time thinking, okay, but what about that file? Okay, but what about that file? You know I have to, I have to check myself and say no, this is, this is what is better for the longterm, this is what is better for people, and the underlying principle is that how you treat people matters.

Speaker 1: 25:57

Yeah, and we want to remember that every day. I think that's beautifully stated. So, with the time we have left, I've asked you to look backwards. I want you to look forward. What is your ideal scene, or what is the vision or what's the dream that you want to see, with both yourself, but also Fit Law?

Speaker 2: 26:16

So this is changing as we go through the months. At one time, I wanted to see a large firm that maintained these core values that we have as a small firm.

Speaker 2: 26:31

I think the bigger intention, though, is to influence the broader profession, as I've always strived to do so, finding ways to create connections with other lawyers, other firms, maybe provide some training, mentorship in some sort of systematic way, but really having an impact on the broader profession, both locally and also, you know, nationally, and potentially even globally, having its impact here or there. I want to use FITLAW as a tool to achieve that broader impact.

Speaker 1: 27:15

That's beautiful. That's beautiful. Well, I, as someone who's um, we've known each other since I started in 2018. Um, I think the first time I came out to Edmonton was in that fall of of of 2018. Um, and then subsequently, we've obviously hung out a couple of times in Edmonton, but at some of our global conventions as well. So I I'm super excited for everything that you're doing. I feel privileged to be able to help in the small ways that we do here at the national office, but I'm excited I'm really excited to see where this journey goes and I'm pretty amazed. I think it's pretty special what you're doing.

Speaker 2: 27:58

Thank you. Thank you. It's something I don't think I could have done without the support and the learnings from Corporate Connections, so I do have a debt of gratitude to the organization for sure, and I'm also really excited to see where we end up, and you know, life is the journey, so I'm really enjoying it at this time beautiful.

Speaker 1: 28:23

Well, I will stick it in the liner notes. But for those who want to reach out to patty, obviously they can find you at fitlawca or in the suburbs of edmonton, should they be traveling through edmonton anytime soon or if they're listening to this from Edmonton as well as obviously extremely active and engaged on LinkedIn and as a member of our community as well, and I know your chapter meets every two weeks, so lots of opportunities to connect with you on that. But we'll put that information in the profile to make it easy for people to connect. Thank you so much, patti. I'm really, really happy to have this time with you today and, as I said, I can't wait to see you. Are you coming to London?

Speaker 2: 29:07

I am. That's right, and I'm really excited about that.

Speaker 1: 29:10

I'm super excited about London. We're four weeks away and if you know me, you know I'm already probably trying to figure out what to bring clothing-wise. So a bit of a peephole, can't wait to see what you decide. We'll see. We'll see. Anyway, patty, thank you so much, and to everyone listening today, thank you for being here with us and hopefully you check us out on the next episode. This is where leaders connect.