Trevor Botkin: 0:10

And welcome back to another episode of when Leaders Connect, the Corporate Connections podcast, where we sit down with business leaders from across our community and chat about their journey, where they've been, where they're going and even where their industry is today and what they see in the future. My name's Trevor Botkin. I'm the National Director for Corporate Connections, Canada.

Trevor Botkin: 0:29

It is my great pleasure today to have a very special guest from our Toronto group, mr Sean Smith, the Chief Operating Officer for Logical Dox Inc. Find it at logicaldox. com and that's with a O-X Logical Dox, which is all about transforming how industries work and learn, and every day they implement solutions that transform the way industries train, manage and support their workforce. Sean has been at the cutting edge of technology, of streaming processes and using technology for business efficiency and I really, truly, I think, a thought leader in that space. So today we're going to dive deep into his journey, his role at Logical Docs and the evolving landscape of what I would say I guess is digital training and equipping teams and workforce for the challenges of 2025. So, without further ado, sean, welcome to our Leaders Connect.

Shawn Smith: 1:31

Good morning, Trevor. I am very happy to be here with you this morning.

Trevor Botkin: 1:36

That's great to have you. You've reinvented yourself. Well, you haven't reinvented yourself. You've made a couple of moves in the last, I guess, four years that we've known you, and today, uh, you are at the forefront of a very niche market that has massive implications for business. Um, and so maybe, if you want to just kind of take us back and give us some insight into your journey and where you are, today.

Shawn Smith: 2:03

Uh, I'll hopefully keep this concise enough to be interesting from that end.

Shawn Smith: 2:09

I've had a few iterations of Sean Smith over my career, from my days of coming out of school and business school and thinking I knew everything and realizing I knew nothing when it came to business and being kind of thrust into a management role to figure things out, sink or swim. So, uh, learned early on kind of the do's and don'ts of business, learned good leadership, bad leadership uh, and kind of iterated to between various businesses. Start off in all places in natural health industry, which is near and dear to my heart. But beyond that I have kind of transformed myself in leadership roles. I'd be very fortunate, by the way, to be brought into leadership roles as a very young guy, to experience leadership of CEO role or VP of turnaround for one particular group. But it all related back to one thing Businesses to me is businesses, businesses.

Shawn Smith: 3:10

Business it's just different people, products and services and of course, first and foremost is the people part.

Shawn Smith: 3:17

So my greatest learnings through my leadership opportunities is to identify leaders within the group that's working with me.

Shawn Smith: 3:28

I work with some tremendous individuals and focusing on from a leadership standpoint instead of trying to do all and bang your head against the wall and realize that I'm good at certain things and not so good at others is to identify what I'm good at certain things and not so good at others, is to identify what I'm good at, which I believe is leading people and really understanding who they are and what drives them, and then endeavor to build a strong bond, strong relationship and empower them to be the leaders that they can be going forward.

Shawn Smith: 4:00

So you know, through my time in the oil patch and selling large capital technology across the world uh, do I said starting a natural health industry to today being involved in a very cutting edge software development group. It links back right to workforce again, and it's all about workforce optimization, workforce modernization, but when it comes down to it, the course about workforce management, enablement and development. And so the business I'm in right now I'm very passionate about because it's near and dear to my heart relating back to people and their impact, the individual impact that individual makes into an organization what?

Trevor Botkin: 4:43

what's interesting, I mean and maybe we can dive into this or not but with the advent of AI and so much technology so many business owners are talking about, are we replacing our workforce? Are we have fewer humans on the floor? And it's something that you and your company are so focused on is taking human assets and enabling them and and creating an environment where, uh, especially in high risk environments, uh, whether it's uh construction or or uh linemen in in terms of electricity, um, but creating a space where they can become more efficient, more effective employees and don't have to be in a dangerous situation to learn how to be more effective or more enabled employees. And it's kind of the opposite of where some of the industry is going, where you're saying we're going to use technology to improve your existing workforce or to bring new workforce on, as opposed to we're going to figure out how to use technology to mean you need less employees, right.

Shawn Smith: 5:56

I think we're in a unique position industry wise. Typically, we're working with organizations that have large workforce deployments, especially field deployment. In their worlds, ai will not replace the person. Technology will not replace the individual's need to do what they do and do it well and safely. So that will continue. But relate AI to our business. So in the tech business, the software business, ai is transforming the way we operate because, for instance, base coding or base programming, whether it's a database development or it's a virtual reality, alternate reality, it's still programming. It doesn't matter the platform.

Shawn Smith: 6:45

But what we consider to be the junior, even up to intermediate development now is being handled through ai, where the focus now is that your senior developers, the ones with real experience, and take that code and then they always have to improve it so that ai will take it to a certain level, but not to the extent of a complete deliverable. It's not that intuitive.

Trevor Botkin: 7:07

So it can do some of those base mechanics.

Shawn Smith: 7:19

And then we layer on top of that, obviously, the human performance side of things and the real, credible skill sets that our development team has in that regard. So AI can help improve efficiencies, but in our world we're still looking to you mentioned it too is use technology to attract new individuals into the trades and the trades are vast, by the way. It could be unions, it could be contractors, it could be constructors. They will always need individuals, skilled individuals, to do the work Right, and what we're trying to do is enhance their skills through technology. So gone are the days of death by PowerPoint, individuals standing in front of 40 people and then, at the end of the day, them signing a document saying they're trained, but they've had no hands on, no immersion into what they're being trained about. They go into the field and they're not ready for work.

Shawn Smith: 8:05

So the realization of that now at our clinic base, again going away from ai. Now it's the practicalities of I need people to be ready for work. If I'm a contractor, uh, I need the efficiency and I need the safety. And, yes, we're dealing with some high risk areas people going into nuclear plants, hydroelectric plants, putting in towers, uh, for the whole energy corridor that's being built and those individuals make the wrong move. In real life they could die.

Shawn Smith: 8:32

And when we get them into skills training through immersion, especially with virtual reality, their retention, their learning is intensified because there's no distraction and if you do make a wrong move, it's indicated you made the wrong move, but you get a chance to do it again without getting hurt. And we're on the cusp of this. For the industries that we're targeting, the adoption rate is still minimal. We've got this worldwide glut of technology backwardness in our industries who are just waking up and saying boy, there's great technology that can advance our business and enhance what we do out there. So we're pretty fortunate to be in that space where technology and what we do is going to be required for a lengthy amount of time, I guess.

Trevor Botkin: 9:20

I would also wonder if there's an ability for even kind of an HR testing, because it's one thing when somebody comes with an application and says, oh, I'm certified on this, I'm certified on this.

Trevor Botkin: 9:32

But the ability to say and I know with coders when I was in video games we would do it all the time We'd be like, okay, sit down and write code. And you would put them through an opportunity to see if I don't have my computer or that, and go, pretty fast, you find out they actually don't write code well or they're sloppy on that, and so, yes, you could say, hey, build a wall and show me a build a wall. But I think in some of these really highly skilled or high risk positions you could put them into a virtual reality environment and say you mark that, you're able to do ABC, show us. And sitting at a console, they could show you right then. And there you go. Okay, they have the skills, they're comfortable, they're calm, they know the controls. So is that something that companies could use to make the hiring process a little bit less risky?

Shawn Smith: 10:29

Absolutely. I think too that sometimes we get asked questions that you guys only do development for hard skills. So hard skills meaning I'm training how to install power line connectors. What we're finding in our industry is actually there is now much more of a focus on the soft skill side of things. So we're just doing scenarios right now working with a college in Toronto and it's for the hospitality industry and it's about communication between two parties. And in the hospitality side I'm a front desk individual. I have somebody come in who's irate because we double booked the room. How do you deescalate that Now, putting them into a scenario of virtual reality?

Shawn Smith: 11:20

They now have a hands-on capability to work and interact and it's iterative too, so that the one answer that they provide will take them down a different path and so on. So the soft skill side of things and I guess the breadth of what we can use the technology for is just ever increasing. And it's amazing the virtual reality, especially alternate reality, for field service support. But in the virtual reality on the training side, the more you showcase it to people they go oh my God, I get it. And now they start thinking about so can I use it as a tool on the front end to vet target individuals to join my firm? Absolutely you can, because you can extract data in that process and pull it back in and say does that person fit? So put some criterion together on the data and say fit, not fit. That can be part of it. So to your point, to your question, yes, it can be used and it's just being used in so many different ways now.

Trevor Botkin: 12:25

What are other business owners telling you when you're sitting down in front of them and basically opening this toolkit to them? What's the biggest thing that they're saying?

Shawn Smith: 12:35

Sean, I love it, but I've got two sides of our two laneways of answering for you, because we really have two distinct deliverables in our business. When we say something called workforce management, that's essentially building a whole framework back office solution for the organization we work with to better manage the deployment of their people to projects. So simplifying it is.

Shawn Smith: 13:02

it's giving the tools to the, to the, to the groups that we work with, to ensure they got the right person at the right job for the right amount of time and, most importantly, with the right skills.

Trevor Botkin: 13:15

It's like a like, an like an ERP almost, for it is right, we are bang on, bang on. So you know you go to IBEW 353 in Toronto, which is the third largest local in North America for the electrical workers.

Shawn Smith: 13:29

So we build that whole framework of how they operate every day, how they manage one of their they call them members, employees how they manage all their skills. Are their skills up to date, do they need to be re-skilled, and so on, and all the other critical information. Are they available for work? So now they do workforce forecasting. So if I'm Sean Smith in the field and I'm on a three-month project now, our system then indicates reporting to the individual who has to manage this workforce to say, three months and one day from now I'm available for work again. They couldn't do that before. They had no visibility forward. So on the workforce management side, a lot of it is the questioning from our clients will surround can you build APIs into other technology we have? So there's connectivity, so I can leverage my investment already, and then just the tool sets and the modules they need and so on. So it's kind of fundamental to business. So on the workforce management side.

Shawn Smith: 14:33

It's really dealing with the groups that need a digital transformation completely how they manage their workforce. Now let's go to the other side, which is the workforce.

Trevor Botkin: 14:42

Hold on Before you move on to the other side. I mean, this sounds we've never talked about this piece of it, but it feels like literally everybody every business that manages people, cities that have employees across the city in multiple sectors whether it's the gardening, fixing, you know, public servants on that Every entity that has resources where Hume is attached as that resource would benefit from a product such as this. I can't think of a single situation where we're like oh, it's probably not worth it and the most valued asset management is the people, it's the people, so is there a critical mass?

Shawn Smith: 15:32

does a five person work in an office? Uh, need a, a workforce management solution? Not necessarily. Uh, you know our. Our critical mass seems to be any group that's got 20 to 25 individuals. And now you're looking at pre-planning. We talk a lot with our contractors. Contractors are a prime example here. So contractors are lining up, so they have got seven or eight contracts sitting in front of them they have to plan for.

Shawn Smith: 16:01

So my question always is, as an entrepreneur and a business owner and looking at the value prop that we present to the clients, my question always surrounds them. So what keeps you up at night? What's the burning issue you have every day? So if there's visibility that can be provided to you, what would it be? And nine times out of ten it comes down to people issues. So that's resource, bandwidth and so on. And then the natural next statement from them sorry, not question is around their skills. Like, are you putting people into the field that are really ready for that job or are you just putting somebody there because they're an aim and they're a breathing entity that can be put onto the contract? So that visibility side, that look for that planning, is a huge part for any enterprise.

Shawn Smith: 16:49

We happen to deal with the skilled trades, because that's our background, that's where we started, but it's really any group out there that has that workforce that they have to manage going forward. So now we're dealing with groups that are the engineers, designer, manufacturers, installers and maintainers of traffic light systems. The list goes on. There's really no limitation there.

Shawn Smith: 17:15

The workforce management side of our business is our foundation and is continuing to grow because the majority of the large workforce groups that we deal with have not invested in technology to better their operations. And you cannot better your operations unless you have visibility. So gone are the days of using macros in spreadsheets because they don't connect to anything. Yeah, right, and and the client that we're dealing with, that I refer to, that we're, uh, in the process of working with here. That's what they'll be doing. So they've got this. You know big, you know microsoft planner and it's laid out in spreadsheets but it's got no interconnect. And then when they're done the project, the data just disappears and I said, wouldn't that be critical data you'd want to use and leverage for next project planning? So the workforce management is a huge element in continuing to grow for us certainly.

Trevor Botkin: 18:12

And would that apply to, say, airlines with pilots and ground crew? And is it like any skilled labor force, that where you've got yeah, it's any individual really that where you've got.

Shawn Smith: 18:26

Yeah, it's any individual really. Um, skilled labor force is one thing only, because part of our deliverable to date has been that whole skills management side. So that you're you're creating that inventory because, starting with skilled unions, a request comes in from a constructor or a contractor, I need hundred electricians with all these skill sets working at Heights, wms. The list goes on, right. So if you don't track that, how do you know who's?

Trevor Botkin: 18:52

available for the work. So now we can filter that request. You can't filter it unless you're doing it all manually.

Shawn Smith: 18:57

I can go and look at their file and see are they up to date. So in the, in the case of our system, the request goes in and now it just prioritizes top to bottom who's first on the list. It's got all the skill sets now, and now you match to that requirement. Then you deploy them in the field and our software tracks them in the field. Now they're at project XYZ, they're doing their work.

Trevor Botkin: 19:23

Feedback comes, maybe the project ends early.

Shawn Smith: 19:26

Now that individual reports back in through the system through mobile app, says I'm available for work again, the project ended early.

Trevor Botkin: 19:33

Great, so now I get real-time info that seems like a game changer it is.

Shawn Smith: 19:40

Uh, we believe it is, anyways I mean you're gonna say it is.

Trevor Botkin: 19:43

But me, as somebody who's never used it, but who's worked in constructions, worked in hotels, done a little bit of everything, to me that's just like life changing. For anyone sitting at an office trying to figure out how to deploy, manage bill for resources. That to me is just like bolt of lightning.

Shawn Smith: 20:12

I think, the surprising element to me in the process because, again, I'm always a questioner we don't sell anything, we just tell our story of the value that we've been able to deliver. And then I ask a lot of questions, because how do I know about somebody's business until you ask the primary questions. Coming back to the burning issue, what keeps you up at night, your visibility into your business, and so on, and the more I ask that question, the more the same answer keeps coming back it's always about workforce. That's the first answer. Always I don't, I don't have enough, I've got limited bandwidth. I can't find the right people right.

Shawn Smith: 20:51

That's why the government of canada and the government of ontario, through skills development funding, is spending hundreds of millions of dollars uh, not only for skills development, the skills development fund being sdf but a lot of the funding is going towards apprentice attraction. And so if it's the younger groups that we're going after right now, we're saying why not use the technology that an 18-year-old is very comfortable in? Vr headset a day in the life, of what a boilermaker does or what a sheet metal worker does, and get them excited about that so that they inquire, because they've never looked on that side, in that side of the world they've. You know, I'm going to college, I'm going to university, we'm all skilled. These skill trades are out there creating a great environment, a great career for them and all of a sudden they get excited because they're in it, they're immersed in it. They go. Oh my God, I never knew a Boilermaker did that and, quite honestly, trevor, I never knew what a Boilermaker did until we made this content.

Trevor Botkin: 21:54

They make boilers.

Shawn Smith: 21:56

They make boilers and other things.

Trevor Botkin: 21:57

yes, it feels like and this is maybe a sidebar and take it or leave it and this is maybe a sidebar and take it, take it or leave it, but it feels like there's also an opportunity for whether it's it's not your primary business, but if there's a spinoff of logical docs that was using content to create ongoing or furthering education, but then having your own, using your own tool to create a resource for people coming into the workforce, where you become a trusted partner of saying, did you check? Because you could track people that aren't employees of a big company, that were new, coming in, where someone would pay to be trained, and then you're placing them into businesses, where they become part of your own sort of resource managing system. Where, where you're able to create a virtuous circle of people going into the workforce and then they're like you know, I need something different. They come back to logical docs HR, let's call it, for lack of a better thing but where you're able to become, um, not just supplying the software but you're also managing resources that come through as almost a subsidiary that is able to do what.

Trevor Botkin: 23:09

Honestly, if we leave it up to the government, it's not going to work Like they would save a ton of money just by giving it to a third party who manage it and run it like a business. The government can't run things like a business. They're not. They're not capable of doing that. It's not what government's for. Whereas if you kind of sneak in on the side and saying we're going to build this, we're going to make it available to the trades, working with maybe some local colleges where students come in, we help go one step further and then they're part of our community where we help them find placement and when they're no longer satisfied with that placement they come back to us and then you become the trusted sort of like feeder to all these trade businesses where it's almost like a stamp of approval They've gone through your program, they're trained through you, there's ongoing training, you know all their criteria. It's like an indeed for trades where everything gets run. Anyway, just sidebar, just putting that out there.

Shawn Smith: 24:03

It Everything gets run. Anyway, just sidebar, just putting that out there. It's funny. It's funny you bring that up on two fronts. Number one, at the governmental level. You're right, we are actually working with the federal government and the provincial governments to work with them on this whole. Workforce development yes. Attraction approach because again they're spending hundreds of millions of dollars. Force development yes.

Trevor Botkin: 24:26

Attraction approach Because, again, they're spending hundreds of millions of dollars.

Shawn Smith: 24:28

The problem they have is A they're not a business. They don't run like a business. B is they don't get any visibility back to their spends and the effectiveness of the spend. So the biggest link for them is how could we work with a group that could build that? And our point to them is we've already built it their framework's already built.

Trevor Botkin: 24:48

We just have to tap now, it's just data points.

Shawn Smith: 24:50

Individuals coming in, track them accordingly, report on them. So we are dealing with the government foundationally at that level. And to your HR statement, funny enough I always thought, if I talked, I'm a big strategic relationship alliance individual. And so when I came into the business I said, ok, so how can we make it more of the power of many versus power of one? How do I create strategic relationships? Who are the strategic relationships we should have as a business? And first and foremost, my mind was always about HR, the HR industry and so on. And we are currently in discussions with a very significant HR group talking about kind of the very same thing that you're talking about, which is building the technology, the foundation, the reporting functionality, and this HR group is a big supplier. So they essentially they do the traditional HR, but they also have HR where they are. They're the employer record for a client. In other words, client comes in and says I need 200 people to work here.

Shawn Smith: 25:57

So my question to them is so you're sending 200 people to the field. How are they trained? Are they the right person for the job, and so on on. So we've now moved along this process, uh, to the point of saying, okay, let's collaborate and work together here, uh, to take technology and improve this whole hr management functionality.

Trevor Botkin: 26:14

So have you and again, sidebar for the. We can edit out of the podcast later if we need to have you talked to stefan bedard or resources that is the group we're talking.

Trevor Botkin: 26:25

That is the group. Okay, good, so funnily enough, because for those who maybe aren't a member, don't know, as stefan is a member here in montreal, uh and uh, and sean's obviously in toronto, but stefan is, I think he's got 2500 employees across canada servicing different employees where it's on his payroll, but they're in other businesses supporting those businesses like a massive HR and I never could figure out how he manages to track all of those resources and do that.

Shawn Smith: 26:52

So so it's funny, we're talking about the tribe we're talking about the development side with him certainly, because that's one thing they really want an edge versus anybody else and that would really set them aside. That's one. Yeah, that's huge, and that's when the development internally for the groups, that sort of the individuals they're putting in the field of managing but it's also offering the services to their clients, yeah.

Trevor Botkin: 27:13

On top of that, where the clients don't have to do the ongoing training, that the human resource company would do the training and become a one-stop shop so that you don't have to be like, oh, who do I go to training now? Yeah, absolutely. So you got that part, and then my natural next question was so if you're putting thousands of people in the field every day, how?

Shawn Smith: 27:33

do you manage that? That's a whole other aspect to your business. So now we're talking about enhancing that side and building a very kind of elaborate solution. We've already built it. It's just making what we've done already. Um, and pretty excited, pretty excited by that.

Trevor Botkin: 27:51

So let's use that as a natural segue. Then, because we haven't talked about it enough, but the because we've talked about the human resource management but we haven't talked about the, um, the training side of it, right, and and because that's kind of always been the sexy side of it, I would say is Ooh, virtual reality, ooh, handset. You know what I mean and that. So maybe maybe just take us through that real quick.

Shawn Smith: 28:15

Yeah, I mean you had asked earlier on. You asked about you know what's the responses when you first speak with business leaders, right and the the?

Shawn Smith: 28:26

beauty of our business is because we've got both the workforce management side and the workforce development side. There's no other technology group out there doing both. One does one, what does the other, to whatever levels they can. I I always felt that having those two lanes of business were so very important to us, because maybe you're dealing with a client person, you talk about the workforce development side and they're not there yet. The workforce management side is fundamental to them, so you can always delve back onto that side. So you talked about the sexy, the interesting part. You talk to people about virtual reality. Oh, what's that? That looks so exciting. And then they look at it and they go, wow, that's exciting, but how do I do that in my business?

Trevor Botkin: 29:07

How do I?

Shawn Smith: 29:07

scale it and how much does it cost? And mine this must be expensive, and so on, and I always that's where we don't call ourselves a VR group, because VR is just an output. Ar is an output. Ar can be on a cell phone, it can be on a screen. It's content. It's content right. So if we're talking about virtual reality and you get all excited by it, let's talk about the context of what you're trying to achieve, though virtual reality may not be a good fit for that. Um so, and we can do something, other things simply through other means that are much less costly to do the.

Shawn Smith: 29:46

The biggest issue typically we have with any business leader is the chasm of virtual reality. I'm uncomfortable with that. It's not something I've ever done. You're dealing with 40, 50, 60 year old people. Virtual reality is not common to them. They've been being in headsets and, quite honestly, most people don't like to look stupid in front of others. So it's a bit of the divide of getting them comfortable, because once you can get them into the environment, they go. Oh my God. Now some of the other aspects that we're dealing with, and trying to push the envelope is one of the biggest issues when you put somebody in a virtual reality headset is, you put two controllers in their hands because that's how you move around the scene in virtual reality. So picture this You're dealing with a 20-year vet, iron worker, gruff, tough guy woman and you say, hey, get in this headset for virtual reality. We're going to put you 30 stories up in a building and you're going to be walking an I-beam and they go sure.

Trevor Botkin: 30:45

And they go. Are you afraid?

Shawn Smith: 30:46

of heights? No, I'm not afraid of heights, of course, I'm an iron worker. I'm tough as nails. You put them in a headset. One of the challenges you have is now you give them the two controllers to operate, and it's foreign to them.

Shawn Smith: 30:56

Yeah, so it's funny About a year ago I was at a conference and I was asked to present on a panel with four other individuals and I listened to one individual talk about how they were trying to build a technology to enhance the ability to deliver controller-free content, so in other words, hand motions and I'm going. Okay, we need to sit down and collaborate here because in the community we're in, where a lot of the training is hands-on, those controllers are an impediment to moving ahead and that's some of the roadblocks up front to decision-making with the client. So now we've just launched, actually our first controller-free scenarios for the skilled trade community and the response has been off the charts. So our goal is to push this further.

Trevor Botkin: 31:42

But I assume, because when I was in VR seven years ago we were already looking at that One of the one of the barriers around that was you know, if you do a glove, that's tracked. You know if you're doing, and we were using pretty high end tracking using lights, so we we could get away with a glove, but then we were in the video, we were in more experiential Right, so we were doing games for malls and that, and so then there's a hygiene thing of putting your hand into the glove, because it was turn and burn, you wanted to get as many people through and so then the gloves would become a little swampy. But from a training aspect that idea of um again, if you're using a pico headset or some of the ones where you're not using an external tracker, it's trickier to then map the hand and the dexterity of the hand. But I saw some pretty amazing stuff seven years ago.

Trevor Botkin: 32:34

But my question and that would make sense for line workers or anyone where you're doing high voltage work or something where it's manual dexterity but you know, I know how much money airlines put into flight simulators and cockpits and that, so that pilots are getting hours in the Boeing the newest Boeing and that's coming from them. So my question would be, in terms of, if it's you know running a big backhoe or you know, uh, you know running a big backhoe or you know a multimillion dollar piece of farm machinery, uh, on that, and training people on to do it, one way is you put them in it and you drive and you know the crop gets hit, or the crop doesn't get hit, like whatever it is. But using those kinds of relationships to build simulators around it where now it's just screens, because the cockpit is the cockpit If the tools are there and it responds to the screen, that's, that's an option. Is that stuff you're looking into?

Shawn Smith: 33:29

yeah, uh, so coordination between something physical, and so just use crane ops. Uh, you know, operating engineers, uh, as a, as a union, have had simulators for 20 years.

Trevor Botkin: 33:44

Okay, uh, okay, so so the difficulty they they have there is that simulator is only a simulator.

Shawn Smith: 33:51

It's a fixed uh and it has the specific content that you can operate on it, uh in. In our case we're doing a lot of uh scenario building or development about things that aren't fixed per se, uh from from that training element. And come back to your point about seven years ago versus today, I mean it's all camera, camera positioning on the headsets. That's improved and you know we do a lot of work with pico and uh people's advanced now that you no longer need a glove. You know I've not made a wristband, ankle band to know where your feet are at, because the cameras have just got better and better and better. And so the hand positioning. So the one we just rolled out is scaffold assembly.

Shawn Smith: 34:35

So the biggest issue was the positioning of the hands for pickup. But now the cameras are so good that that dexterity, that hand positioning now is much better in real life and it's almost tactile. Of course we can build that in from response standpoint because you don't have the controllers anymore. So that is developing. Hardware is getting much, much better processing, speed-wise especially too. But this controller-free now is the ability for us to deal with any of these groups of individuals where they're dealing with training elements and the example I gave you is building scaffolding in an elevator shaft, because the elevator workers are one of our bigger clients, and so the ability now to take the controllers out and the feedback from the training, the trainers side of things, it's just, it's phenomenal. So it's a it's kind of at the cutting edge, uh, in that end, and now hardware can support the, the requirements. Now, to make sure that you know these scenarios are as real life as they could ever be that's amazing, well, uh, it's.

Trevor Botkin: 35:46

It's amazing how fast time flies, and so we're already out of time today and I just wanted to say, sean, thank you so much for joining me today and for your continued leadership and just your engagement within our community and in the Toronto region. How much it means to me region how much it means to me.

Shawn Smith: 36:06

Listen, I, I, I appreciate it. The uh, the journey with uh CC has been a fantastic journey. Um, as I, as I mentioned to, many people ask me about CC all the time and and I just say to them that it's a fantastic group of leaders, but, even more so, great people, and so it's an honor actually for me to be involved in CC, uh and work with uh, work with guys like you who are impassioned to make impact. Uh, you know it's pretty easy to be engaged and to uh to support the initiative. I'm going to do everything by party to ensure that it's enhanced over time.

Trevor Botkin: 36:45

Well, I love your perspective on managing human capital and and I'm super excited to see what you guys do with death and bedard human resources. I think this would be pretty cool to all our listeners. I hope that you're walking away with a deeper understanding of how these cutting edge solutions are impacting the workplace and that there are solutions out there that you can grow, that you can manage and plan your resources, but, foremost, that you know our most important resources are our employees, are the people that work for us, and that there are cutting edge technologies that are reshaping how we train them, how we manage them, how do we make sure that they're safe, but also that they're productive and enjoying the work that they're doing, because that's ultimately what will keep them coming back every day. So stay tuned for more engaging conversations and to connect with leaders. Like Sean Smith, I'll put your information in the liner notes so people can reach out to you, and until next time, this is where leaders connect.